Biggest Job Search Mistakes (And How To Fix Them)

Lisa Rangel, Recruiter-Endorsed Resume Writer and principal Chameleon Resumes and I discuss some common job search mistakes and how jobseekers can avoid making them. 

Topics include:
✔️ Resumes that don't get results
✔️ Prepping for Job Interviews
✔️ End of interview questions
✔️ Salary Negotiation
✔️ LinkedIn profile mistakes
✔️ Age discrimination and other "ism's" 

Smarter Career Moves LinkedIn Live audio. 

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(Previously recorded, Live Show)

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Transcript

Annette (00:00:08):

Hi, I'm Annette Richmond. Your host for the Smarter Career Moves podcast. If you're on Clubhouse, you can also find me on the Smarter Career Moves club. [inaudible]

Annette (00:00:31):

I am. Annette Richmond as you probably know, and this is my first session with LinkedIn live, so I'm very excited to be here. My thank you. So my businesses career intelligence, resume writing and career services, and I am a certified master resume writer. So Lisa, if you could just tell us a little bit about you and your amazing business.

Lisa (00:00:59):

Thank you, Annette, for asking me I'm Lisa Rangel. My company's chameleon resumes. We are an executive resume writing company and like you I'm a former recruiter, that in the last downturn, 2009 started a resume writing business and it's now been a good 12 years running. So, and, yeah, I'm honored to be here honored to be your first guest honor to support you. This is really fabulous. So thank you so much.

Annette (00:01:28):

Okay. So very cool. Lisa and I are going to kind of be here chatting like we do, often, and if you have any comments or questions, please put them in the comments on the website, I'm sorry, on LinkedIn. And I will hopefully see them and be able to, we can respond to them. So I thought it'd be a nice thing to talk about the biggest sort of job search mistakes that people make, because there are so many things that they do wrong every day. And maybe we can give some advice on how to correct them. And the one that always comes to mind first to me, because I actually get I get emails from people who send me their resume and they say, Oh, look at my resume. I'm not getting any ads. I'm responding to like 50 ads a day and I'm just not getting anywhere. Right. And so, my thought is that's like throwing spaghetti up against the wall and making it try to hope that it sticks somewhere. So please share your, your thoughts on that.

Lisa (00:02:36):

I think this is a really a great time to do it, to do this topic on Friday afternoon. Because everybody knows,  job seekers are going to spend their weekend after working all week to, to look for the weekend, and if it's someone who maybe took some breaks over the week during the week, they're going to spend their weekends,  hustling to try to get a jump on the next week. So this is perfect timing. And I’m often emailed like you like many of us in this business, I’m S I'm struggling, I'm frustrated. I'm sending my resume. I've had written before I've had my college career center helped me.  and I, and I'm still feeling like I'm not getting it right. or outplacement helped me. I'm still feeling like I'm not getting it right.

Lisa (00:03:20):

And I actually had someone send me three versions at three different resources did for her this week. And, she could tell she was just pained by the frustration that she was experiencing. And when I looked at all three, one of the biggest mistakes that I saw in the resume was each of them did not really have achievements, and she had a, an enterprise sales type background and there was no numeric measurement. There was, it was very task focused and, in all three, and I was like, you kind of,            , you need to bring out how well you have done your job so far. And especially in sales, you need to have some numeric measurement. whether it's the revenue, whether it's the profit increase revenue increase, the number of clients increase the business line expansion, like whatever.

Lisa (00:04:11):

However, you did a good job that needs to be articulated. And and another mistake that I saw in each of her resumes, it wasn't even in just one was she had professional summary as the heading instead of the title of the job, ? So that, that, that section right under their name, right under the applicant or the candidates name, job seekers name is to me and you, I know we all talk about this, right? It's prime resume real estate. And she had professional summary, there, and, and it was disheartening because,              , I wrote back in an email to her just explaining that you're not leading the reader to what you want to do, your mate, you're making them do the work. And like, you're, trying to figure it out, you're leaving it to them to figure it out.

Lisa (00:05:06):

And most of them, most recruiters, aren't going to take the time to figure it out. So, I'd say those are just two mistakes I even saw this week, but I see often are just task driven documents that really should be achievement driven documents. And then in the spirit of trying to be general and broad, there's no specific title at the top of the resume outlining what they want to do. And, when you're trying to be general and broad, so you appeal to many things, you ultimately appeal to nothing as, right. So just to, there was not so much the job search, but at least the resume side of it. And we can, I digressed a bit, we can go through the jobs. I'm sure you've seen some stuff this week too.

Annette (00:05:43):

Well, I see basically two, two types of resumes either. They are people who are operational, which, would be someone in marketing or where, they're not necessarily generating revenue and they're very task focused. I do this, I do that. I've done this, but there are no metrics. And the flip side of that is I see resumes from these dynamic salespeople and all they have are numbers, so they have numbers, but they don't have any story about it. So if you're saying that, you in, your, your quota, 125% of your quota and you generated blah, blah, blah, does that, is that because of what you're doing or is that just because you have a really hot product that's easy to sell? And, I always think of, I have one client I've worked with a couple of times.

Annette (00:06:38):

And one of the things that he did early on in his career was he was selling, he was an enterprise sale selling sort of phone services and go to new areas just that were just being developed in town and knock on the doors of people that were just moving in and say, Hey, can I help you with this? So it's, it's things like that, that, that show, what this person is bringing. I always saw that as being a real go getter. you're not just sitting on the phone, you're really, really out there. So that's, that's really what, what I see I see

Lisa (00:07:18):

Nowadays being on the phone and selling is right. Like, you, you really know your craft, if you can sell complicated or difficult things over the phone, because that's how we're all selling. Right. So I think that that's a whole other skill set nowadays. Right.

Annette (00:07:34):

You think about everything. There's, there's really, at this point, there, there is nowhere there's nowhere to go. There's no live networking or anything, but,  hopefully, hopefully things are well, things are, I think, moving in the right direction and hopefully

Lisa (00:07:48):

We have LinkedIn live. So,

Annette (00:07:53):

So, so we get to spend some time together. So another thing, and I I think you'll agree with me is that people just don't prep for job interviews. And one of the problems, interviews now of course are virtual. If  you're going in, if you're one of the top two candidates, you may be going to see somebody in person, but, my feeling is they're going to kind of stay that way. Most with a lot of the interviews being done remotely when I was recruiting and I only did it for, a few years seven years ago, they were already moving to virtual interviews even for local candidates because it just saves everybody so much time. And I it, it seems sometimes the people just, they think of a virtual interview as being just, Oh, it's a screening interview. So do you find that as well?

Lisa (00:08:51):

I mean, it definitely, I think things have definitely become a little bit more lax in general. And I think it's important, despite people experiencing, like pandemic fatigue and, and being exhausted and that sort of thing. So at least when it comes to a job interview, for the most part, do your best to put your corporate front back on, to the best of your ability. And, but I know it's challenging, but I do see that there is a bit of, of a bit more relaxed, a bit of an approach than say maybe, pre pandemic obviously. But I find that, when we prepared for interviews, right, when we recruited, 10, 15 years ago, if you looked on the internet that was like considered the extra effort, because people weren't really looking on the internet that much, then, and now that's like a given, right?

Lisa (00:09:44):

So it's not about like what you can find online and show that you did your research. It's really about having the information at your fingertips and displaying it in a critical thinking type of manner that you've digested and, apply it to maybe a conversation or a situation. And I think that is hard to prepare for, right, because you're really thinking on your feet, but you prepare by doing the research, right. So, so at least you can maybe have a, a moment of critical thinking displayed on the interview. But that that's, I think where people could set themselves apart is when there's original ideas on the interview. And that only comes from doing some research?

Annette (00:10:29):

Right, right. No, no, I agree with you. But part of the thing I think is, is important about the research also is, when you're at the end of the interview and they say, do you have any questions? You don't want to ask them questions that you could have found out by looking on their website.

Lisa (00:10:44):

Oh, isn't that the truth? 

Annette (00:10:46):

Yeah, when I, when I was recruiting and I was just the, the screener I was condemned, so I was just screening and I would always ask the candidate because they knew the company before, we spoke and they'd say, do anything about the company? And some people would be like, yeah. I was looking at them online and I found all these cool things that blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then there's be some people like, no, not really. And like, okay. So when I wrote up my little sheet that I sent with the resume, the people that were really excited to work there, I'd say, yeah, this person tells me dah, dah, dah, and the other people was just nothing. So, I just, my thought is, is being excited that the employers want to know that you want work there.

Lisa (00:11:31):

Yeah. And people, yeah. I mean, people want the enthusiasm of where they are, but that enthusiasm also, I think, needs to be returned right. By employers. Like it needs to, I think I try to suggest to people going into, and then go into the interview as if you’re equals, there shouldn't be this, like,  we're evaluating you or subservient kind of vibe or anything like that. Right. It's it really is a meeting of two equals that are determining if this is a good match. And, if a candidate isn't feeling that on the other side as well, they have decisions to make too. They may decide not to go further or it's not going to be their place. Or, even if they really need the job, they may decide it's not worth it. Right. So I think showing enthusiasm is key and it, and it needs to happen on both sides. Right?

Annette (00:12:23):

No, I, I agree. I, had a candidate that the, the employer loved pull themselves out because they said,              they just, they didn't have any answers for me. And so I I'm sure you had that experience as well.

Lisa (00:12:39):

Yeah. I mean, that’s the thing, like I think if if candidates and it's by no means candidate blaming in any way, but like if candidates can equally take responsibility for their happiness at a job, and if they see red flags not take it, they've avoided, they may have dodged the bullet so to speak. Right. So and I think sometimes there's a vibe that the company will make me happy or the company, the employer should make me happy and don't get me wrong. Employers have a big responsibility to take good care of their employees. But it, but it also, it goes both ways,  like we have to, as candidates be responsible for our own happiness, only accept what we know is going to make us happy and and set boundaries and that sort of thing. I think if you do that through the interview process, you're essentially setting up that relationship. And if it is going to go forward, it's got more of a chance to succeed.

Annette (00:13:39):

Oh, Oh, I agree with you. The, the worst job I ever had in my life when I went in for the job interview,              , I was trying to get into public relations and I was able to get this job, but the interview was terrible. The interviewer was, I, my gut told me, no, this is not for you. But there I went when I was offered the job. And it's the only job in my life. I was there six weeks. It was, I'll never forget this. It was the day, the day before Thanksgiving. And I called up and I said, I'm not coming in today. And they said, Oh, okay, will you be in on Friday? And like, no, I'm not ever coming back. I swear to God terrible thing to admit, but               what, so what are some ways that, that you would recommend that people can, during the interview sort of get a feel for the employer?

Lisa (00:14:32):

That's a, that's a great question. I  like to ask the interviewer, why they, like, why they like working there, and if they've been there a while, I'll, I'll suggest candidates ask her, I'll ask, what made them stay or how, how has the company changed over the years? And if they just joined, what made them join? How is it different from your previous employer? What were they surprised by? That’s actually a question I always like to ask in general, whether I'm hiring a vendor or, I'll coach clients to ask the question too, like if they're interviewing people it's, we all have quirks and we all have work patterns and work styles. So I'll say assuming we hire you, we're assuming you, you join us, we're gonna work in together.

Lisa (00:15:30):

What are some quirks or work styles that you have that I'm going to figure out pretty quickly, I'll tell you mine, and, and I'll offer mine out, or version of them. Cause I've probably got a few, right. So and, and it's, it's nothing disparaging or it's not looking to catch anybody in a gotcha or but everybody's got their little quirks, right. That they do whether it's how they set deadlines or how to get things done early. And it's not for the Pollyanna answers either, but it's really an opportunity to one, see if somebody is going to be realistic with you and vulnerable with you. And, and two, if that quirk really is something that you guys know that once you what's, I say mine and they say, there is, isn't gonna match. Maybe we just dodged a bullet there.

Lisa (00:16:15):

Right. So some people are really pumped up by doing things the day before, and that's not necessarily always viewed as a bad thing sometimes. And so, especially in like creative circles and some people can't handle working like that. So, and that's just one of a myriad of examples that people might say, but,              , so it's, I think when you start to find out how people work, and ask about work styles and communication styles and, and stuff like that, and get vibes as to how, why people stay or why people joined or how they see things changed or,  things like that. That's one way to, to get some indication of how the day-to-day culture works, that

Annette (00:17:00):

No, I was going to say that it is, it is so difficult and there definitely are different sort of speeds that, that companies run on route for a magazine. Everything was like, go, go, go deadline all the time. I worked for a nonprofit and, it was a wonderful place that did great work, but I had somebody tell me when there's nothing that can't be done tomorrow. And I'm like, what do you mean by that? No, of course it's got to be done today. And I think there's also people and maybe it's good to judge our,  look at ourselves. Some people go in and they think, okay, I'm looking around. What can we do? What can we do better? Right. And then other people, some companies are like that too, and always encouraging innovation. And there's no, if you do it and yet, and you fail, that's fine because you're trying, and some companies have the attitude that if it's not broken, don't fix it. So how can you figure out what a, what a company,  kind of what the rhythm is before you get there? Do you have any suggestions for that?

Lisa (00:18:08):

I think as you start to ask about, challenges that they're experiencing or opportunities that lie before them,  ask about maybe habit planning would work around things like that. Or if they've recently launched something like, so you've done your research and stuff, they recently launched a new product or a new service, or they did an integration or something to that effect. You might say like, how did the planning, transpire for something like that? What are the first steps you're going to be in a planning role?  Who would you expect me to reach out to first? And what plan are you expecting?  How enumerated do you think the company are you gonna, are you expecting the plan to be? Am I going to be dealing with individual managers for [inaudible] aspects of the plan?

Lisa (00:18:56):

Is, does it just go to one person and they're doing it, like you just start to get a, and I'm being very general obviously, but you just start to get a feel for the answers, based on just trying to find out how things have gone and past initiatives, and then maybe how things will go with expectations that are being discussed about in the job and,  based on the answers of, well,  unless they bring it up, you probably won't have to do that versus like, you need to take initiative and drive this. Like, you'll be able to get a sense of, who is a little bit more laid back who is a little bit more proactive and assertive and, and, and determine which culture is best for you. Right. And then somewhere in between your others. So,

Annette (00:19:41):

So there's when we're talking about interviews, I, I think at the close of the interview one of the myths, one of the mistakes people make, I made this myself, as you say, okay. You might ask for next steps. I think if you talk to any career professional, they'll say right before you're leaving, ask what are the next steps to, get the interview  for the next interview, but I heard somebody the other day say I heard this actually a couple of times in the last couple of days that before you leave, or, maybe not the last question that you say to the interviewer is there, is there anything that, I haven't addressed? Is there any, do you have any concerns or any reservations about me moving forward? So is that something that,             , I hadn't really heard that exact approach before, to sort of be, I guess, assertive, maybe on, I don't know.

Lisa (00:20:40):

I mean, I think I've heard that before. I think you have to determine, like, I think you have to the situation, if I think to ask that question, you have to be pretty confident that it went well. And, and, and in a, in a factual,  objective manner, not just, hubris not just from Ubers of, right, but because I think if you do something like that and you've done well, it could be somewhat of an assumptive close. And if w if they do bring up a concern or two, it could be a sign that they're actually really thinking about you as a candidate, because they just want to work out some smaller details. Right. I think, I think objections come up when people are interested. Typically, if you haven't done well, or you're genuinely objectively speaking feeling like is you're not the choice.

Lisa (00:21:44):

I think asking something like that could reinforce the fact that you're off the Mark, because it could display that your judgment is off that you think you should be moving forward. Clearly this didn't go well. And so I think asking better questions that can put you in a better light and be reconsidered, or at least remain on the, on the block of consideration is going to be a better approach. So I think it just depends. because on the flip side, if you ask them, if you did do well and you asked something like that and you don't deliver it properly, you can also kill your chances, too. If you come across too much too assumptive and not humble. So you really got to nail that if you're going to do it, not only in your delivery, but in the situation. And I don't think that's like a blanket thing that everybody should use,             , if somebody has a crazy, bold personality and they asked that we could almost reinforce a little bit there's too much bravado, right. And if somebody is a bit more subtle in their approach, a little bit more pensive, and it went well and they asked that it could come across more like a consultative, a consultative sell, right. So it's just, there's so many moving parts to something like that. But I wouldn't necessarily say everybody should ask that.

Annette (00:23:11):

I agree with you. I agree with you. It could backfire. It's kind of like signing the, the letter, I'll call you next week. Well, if you're not going to call them next week, don't write that you're going to call them next week. And one of the things that I have suggested to, to clients when you, when you send that, thank you note, which, nobody woke a lot of, most people don't do, but, but when you send that, if  you think there were any concerns you can reinforce and resell yourself in that, thank you note, it's just another, another opportunity to to sell yourself.

Annette (00:23:52):

So one another thing that I, I really have to go with your expertise, because this is not an area that I work with my clients at all. And I really do. It's a question of salary negotiation now, right now I've read surveys that say, the employers expect it, but most people don't do it. The people that do as you're trying to negotiate they, they can often get a higher wage.I had that happen to me. I didn't ask for more, I didn't get any more, somebody else was hired for the same job later and told me he, well, I wanted more than they gave it to me. So w w how can people approach that?

Lisa (00:24:39):

That's a great question. I think first, it's just doing your homework to seeing what positions are paying in your area and determining if your skillset is above, warranty above market rate or, or, or not. And then,             , your confidence in being able to deliver, allows you to ask. I think too, if you're going to do the job and,              , you're going to work the hours, do the delivery of what's expected above and beyond, and then, then ask, if you feel, I mean, rarely, but it does happen if you ask and an offer's rescinded, you have to wonder,  would conversations be handled like that if you were there being an employee, right? Like where it's this very absolutely sort of, that's not really a word, but you get the bucket, if it's a very absolute type of environment, take it or leave it, if you, sometimes people are afraid to ask, it's like, well, what if they are unhappy with me?

Lisa (00:25:52):

Or what if they rescind the offer? It's like, well, you clearly need to evaluate if you can afford the offer to be rescinded. Right. So the other thing too, is you have to know your F your, your salary stats, because if you're being offered something that is at, or above market rate, you also may not need to ask. And then,          , just accept happily. Like, this is obviously a very rare situation, but we literally had someone a few years ago. And he was a, a tech person with some crazy obscure in demand skill. And he literally got an offer 60% higher than he expected. Wow and we had prepped him before that, because he was asking for a high amount and we said, look, if you get what you need, just say yes, like, people, the employer needs to feel good too, right.

Lisa (00:26:50):

About making the offer if they're making a good offer. Right. So, if you are getting a good offer and it is at, or way beyond you ever thought you would get it's okay to say yes, I think so. Luckily, he just went, that's great, like, can you imagine getting 60%, a number 60% higher than your already high number in your head? And then you start negotiating. Like they'd probably keep it. Right. So I think, but for that, obviously that's not necessarily who we're talking about, but you have to know if what you're getting is warranting and negotiation. I think blanketly just negotiating sometimes could be in bad taste if it's already a good one.

Annette (00:27:37):

Yeah, no, no. I hear you. And I agree. It's so important to do that research because  employers, because they have a range and the person who has everything is getting the higher end and, but one thing I found happened to me a couple of times where,  the candidate was, it was a really good candidate, but not and underpaid and the often,  as you today, everybody knows that there's, I think it's 21 States now where people cannot be asked their current salary, but they asked for a range and this person asked for it a really low range because it was higher than what they were making because they just didn't do their research. And consequently, the employer thought that they were just under-qualified.

Lisa (00:28:27):

Yeah, there's that too. So, I mean, that's, that's, it's a good thing that people are that the laws are being passed that you can't ask about past numbers, but that's the thing, the thing that the laws can only protect somebody, so much, we're still responsible for knowing what we should be asking for we’re still having these laws passed, does not relieve candidates of having, of knowing how to negotiate. Yeah.  and, and I say this as somebody who, comes from, a blue-collar background and I didn't know how to negotiate. I thought like you just showed up to work. You took what they gave you and, you were grateful for the job and when you worked overtime, if you wanted more and, and, and I, and so I had to learn, that you had to ask and, shaking in my boots sometime my heels.

Lisa (00:29:28):

Right. Sometimes. So it's and didn't get it always either, So we have to take responsibility for learning how to negotiate and advocating for ourselves. And then if we're running a team, we really have to advocate for, the, the equity amongst all people, even if they're not necessarily asking, making sure that they know how to ask or they should be asking because when that stuff gets discovered in the lunchroom, and I know there's, it's a virtual lunchroom nowadays, but it it's, it's demoralizing. So,           , let's just hit it off a pass, but that doesn't mean, but you can have a manager that sees the right things and wants it, equal pay for equal work. You can have laws passed all that is good, but none of it relieves individuals having to learn how to advocate for themselves. And that's, something I think we all must do.

Annette (00:30:29):

Absolutely. And they have to navigate their own career and be responsible for that as well. It’s not, it's not on the employer, to train you. And it it's a lot of, a lot of employers do, a lot of them have, in-house training, they pay for professional development and whatever, and you can take advantage of that. It's, it's great. But you need to you, you can't rely on the employer. I know, my dad worked at the same company, his entire life, same thing, blue collar worker, and, things, I mean, I know that was a while ago, but even today, the, the idea of having, being with your employer, who's kind of like your parent taking care of you. It's just not like that anymore. Particularly moving more towards this kind of gig economy.

Lisa (00:31:18):

Yeah. No, and I, I mean, I come from, a family of teachers and government workers, like, you didn't, you didn't really negotiate, there’s brackets and time and education merits, like what got you, your raises, it wasn't necessarily like, cause you negotiated. So it was a learning process, but start with the research. If you get a good offer to say thank you and reinforce their excitement. If, and if you don't and it’s not always about the money sometimes too, like you might be willing to negotiate time off, you might be able to negotiate better benefit packages. You might be able to negotiate, tuition reimbursement, if that's important, you may be able to negotiates certain transportation perks or work from home perks or equipment at home that isn't part of the normal, situation.

Lisa (00:32:15):

And, and, and so there's so many different ways to make sure that that's, worthwhile right. Gym memberships or things like that. But when you start adding up all those perks yeah, it's thousands of dollars, to your income, if you were paying for it. And if you were, paid the money and having to pay for perk. So, there's often different ways of doing things. So but I think that the key is to start out with the research and know when it's right to ask. And then, in terms of how to ask, it's less about, it’s not an, I deserve it thing, right. It's, it's really like, here's the stats, here's what I'm going to do. And here's ROI,             , for what I'm asking for. And so based on what you need me to do, this is going to make the company X, or this is, a time-saver of X, if you're in more operations or that sort of thing. And then you're looking at what you're asking for is going to bring a savings or revenue generation or the labor efficiency in some way, or, whatever it is, right. That you're being brought on to do, there's value in that. And now you have to tie what you're asking for to be associated with the value of bringing somebody like on you, you like you on board.

Annette (00:33:41):

No, I agree with you. And it, it has to be about kind of the employer, even if you're looking it can't be because, I have a mortgage now, so, I need to make, and even, even if you're, if you're looking for something like flex time or, working one day a week at home, I talked to a friend, I don't know, not that long ago, who was trying to negotiate, just working from home that actually she moved farther away from the, from the office and had been loosely working from home and a new manager came in and,              , it was kind of maybe back to the office. Right. And I recommended her strategy be to position it as how it would be better for the employer. She was able to work at, at home. And she went in with that situation and, did get that perk really.

Lisa (00:34:34):

Yeah. And I, I mean, when you, I mean, I think that's actually, I mean, not to segue into something else, but like that's a huge topic now is, with everyone, with companies reopening and people talking companies talking about going back to the office, everyone is who's working from home and wants to stay home, has a leverage point. Now it's been working, assuming, assuming it has been working for them, right. I can't assume it's worked for everybody, but assuming it's working, you now have a leverage point that might be worth, exploiting. And I don't say that to be negative, you don't use that word exploit to be negative, but, this is your leverage point. And, and you're certainly not going to hold your employer hostage by any means, but, you have your proof of it works and maybe, you propose that you're going to the office like once every three weeks, or you can, share space with somebody or  how it's a in real estate costs or they can take out less of a, smaller lease or, share space, and you're still showing how the revenue hasn't been affected by the work arrangement.

Lisa (00:35:50):

I mean, it may be affected by just demand or something pandemic related, obviously. But when you show that the efficiencies are exists and the cost savings of not as many people being in the office, in addition to there still being safety concerns with so many people going back to an office, it, it, people have leveraged. Now you have to create a situation where they can have an ongoing work from home or flex time scenario. And I think companies are really open to it right now, they want to keep people happy. They realize people still have demands that, that are beyond norm normal, with, with at-home school or caring for elderly parents or, whatever the case may be. So there there's a need and they don't want to lose quality people because somebody can't come into work until 10 o'clock or they have to be home by X or so, now's the time to capitalize on that, as best as somebody can and, and as diplomatically as you can.

Annette (00:36:55):

Yeah. No, I agree with you in every study, I read says that people that work from home work more hours anyway, I mean, right. No, I'm glad that you did move into that. Move into that. it’s certainly true. if things are running smoothly, I'm, I'm curious to see how things are going to shake out going forward with people just moving to that whereas you were saying, you can have someone come in, two days a week and work at the desk and somebody else can work at that same desk, a different two days a week. And, to, to cut down on the office space for the employees.

Lisa (00:37:37):

So, one tactic that we would use with clients even before the pandemic took place, we would, we would help people try to negotiate part-time situations at home or things like that is, is give the, the employer an opportunity to evaluate things in a certain period of time, like I think everybody's, even, even before 2020, and it's even more so now, like everybody's afraid of the word forever, right? So like, or permanency, right. So if you say like, based on this working now , or I'm going to propose, we do this              , pre prior to 2020 would say, I'm going to propose we do this and let's evaluate it in three months. But you would have to obviously be open to them saying no. Right. But, at least it allows it to be, tried.

Lisa (00:38:30):

Right. And, and even now, if there's a resistance you can say like I see your need for needing us to be back in the office. I'm hoping you can see my need for the remote work arrangement. How about we try this? And let's, let's reevaluate it in three months or six months or whatever, timeframe culturally from time tends to need to try things out. But if like, there's a, a flexibility vibe that's given, then people are less likely, companies don't want to be in a situation of taking something away from someone, even if it's not initiated by them. Right. But they need the opportunity to say, Joe, this isn't working for us. Right. So you have to, I think that's a way to come across, like your business partner, right. Comes back to the interview, right? Like you're meeting of equals. And so you're trying to come up with, to make it for both parties. And I think when you propose it that way within a little bit more and nine times 10, you're going to do that work, especially if it has been working and it'll probably be fine.

Annette (00:39:39):

No, I agree with you and, there's so many things and a lot of it, as you mentioned, is being diplomatic,             , going about it in the right way, having, having your stats, if you talk about, things that you've done, whether you're negotiating your salary or negotiating a raise and say, and this is, this is why, I think I deserve that. Or maybe I just deserve that. Because of X, Y, and Z, that I've, I've done, I've accomplished. 

Lisa (00:40:11):

You, you bring up an excellent, you bring up an excellent point though, is, when you give the range, right. Like you mentioned earlier, I think a mistake, a lot of people make is because they don't want to lose it. They give a low number that they're actually truly not happy with. Yeah. And then when they're offered that number, they're like, like that didn't work out so well. So like, you really have to, that one of those like classic negotiation, tactic type of things is be willing to walk away. Well, being willing to walk away is putting forth the number that you are going to be happy with at the bottom, if you get it, which means if it's lower than that, you will walk away. And I think a lot of people make that mistake.

Lisa (00:41:00):

And it's, and then they get, they get the offer within the range. And when then they're trying to negotiate from an offer, they said that they would take, yeah. That doesn't leave a great impression either. So you really have to be firm with your boundaries. You have to truly say if it is, your $125K and if it's $124K I’m walking away, and that might be dramatic, but no, you're going to miserable all at once. Then you got to walk away. Otherwise you're not taking responsibility for your happiness. Right. So 

Annette (00:41:39):

And there, there are times I've been there myself. I'm sure you probably been there yourself where, you really need the job and you really have to take the job, even if it's not exactly the salary you want or whatever, we, I don't want to diminish anybody. Who's just needs to take a job. But having said that, I think it's important people, they jump at a job without thinking enough about the, the whole package and the package being, maybe it's the commute time. Maybe it's the days off or the vacation time, maybe the flex schedule, the benefits, whether they have, tuition, reimbursement or not. And I think one of the mistakes people make is they don't really think about I've done that myself. They don't really think about the criteria. That's most important to them when they're looking for a job they may take. If they, if they're lucky enough to get two offers, they may just look at the salary and not, the real, differences between the positions and what they're really getting. 

Lisa (00:42:48):

And, and quality of life is also something that can factor into maybe taking lower than you thought. Right. Or maybe that you would take the one from before. Right. Or like, and again, I agree with you not to diminish anyone that has to take the job, like, but that's, that's quality-of-life factor, right. So maybe you go, okay. The difference, taking something lower than I expected is that I don't have to stress about, I can get paid to look for a job while I work I can at least look for a job in my office. I mean, I'm getting paid to look for a job if you make up, if you end up making concessions, I think it's really important. And this may sound a little woo. But like, I think it's really important to write like a gratitude list as to why you are grateful for the job in its imperfect form.

Lisa (00:43:40):

Right. Cause no job is perfect. I mean, I remember the job that I had before I started chameleon. I mean, they may see this one day and but it's no secret. I hated the job. But I was a single income, my husband was a stay-at-home dad and we had two little kids. And I would say to that, I would say to myself, like, this allows me to provide for my family. This allows me . . . I'm looking for a job and I'm still doing my job. Right. But I'm like, at least I get to look for a job while I'm working versus looking for a job, not working and so I would find ways,, to be grateful for the job.

Lisa (00:44:28):

So then I wasn't miserable. And frankly, then when you're not as miserable, you actually interviewed better. Right. But the other thing too is eventually from that job, I was laid off and that was a blessing in disguise. And I found being, at the time, I was working in New York city and then I was, I was working from home. Well I wasn't working from home. I was home. So, when I wasn't commuting, wasn't needing to get dry cleaning, wasn't like so stressed out that I was like, my, I had to walk to my office. And we've walked part of that was walking into Midtown Manhattan. So, walking past these stores and going, I need that purse. That's a stressed out, I'd serve it.

Annette (00:45:15):

Oh yeah. 

Lisa (00:45:17):

It purchases and treating yourself to lunch because you're stressed out and, the happy hours and I know we're in COVID, but like, obviously all that will change and believe me, we're all doing retail shopping when we're stressed out at home. So it's all the same. Right. I mean, the Amazon boxes are packing up. Right. But like when you start, when you, when you leave a job that isn't when you leave a job to go to something else that isn't as stressful, even if it's less money, when you add up what you spent, facilitating your stress, a lot of times, or you didn't really take as big a pay cut as you thought you took because you're not spending all this crap that you didn't need. Right.

Annette (00:46:01):

No, I agree with, I agree with you

Lisa (00:46:06):

Raised when I got laid off because I wasn't spending on all this stuff.

Annette (00:46:11):

No, there'll be, before we move on to another topic, I, I hear you, the last job that I had before I was, full-time in my own business. I hated that job so much. I hate. And I gained like more than 10 pounds because I would go across the street to the, the Wedge Inn and I'd be eating, Rubens and all that stuff because it made me feel better. Cause I hated my job so much.

Lisa (00:46:39):

And there's health consequences to other expense bracket.

Annette (00:46:45):

So let's, let's, let's talk a little bit about LinkedIn mistakes. And so why don't you, why don't you start off with that with whatever you go with.

Lisa (00:46:56):

I don’t know, I always tend to think a little differently with LinkedIn. And I think a lot of people I, I tend to, and I know this isn't going to necessarily be favorable advice, but I tend to not follow or care. It's probably not the right word, but that's, what's coming to mind about all, sometimes the new things, like I get immediately like a little bit of excitement at the beginning just to see what it is, but I really go back to always the same type of functions that I use on LinkedIn, which is really just to reach out to people and talk to them offline,  use it as like a massive networking event.  Whether I stumble upon somebody or I deliberately go look for somebody and then try to take the conversation offline and nurture it and talk to them.

Lisa (00:47:45):

And I have never stopped doing that from the day that I came onto this. And there's been, groups and groups are great, I know they, there's different schools of thought of how they've transpired over the years. But there's groups, there's videos, there's LinkedIn live. There's all these sorts of things. There's all sorts of types of features and things. And you can put this on the profile and you can do all this stuff. And believe me, it's all typically good. Right. Very infrequently as something like, Hm, that was a fail. So it's all good. But I feel like a lot of times it just distracts from the one thing that I think is the most powerful for job seekers. And that is truly just finding people, reaching out and starting a conversation offline, like even if you comment, how many times do you talk to somebody offline?

Lisa (00:48:38): 

I have clients senior, heavy hitter executives who say LinkedIn's not working for me. And I'm like, all right, when you got over 500 connections, I can't really see behind your curtain there, how many do you really have your 4,000? But how many of those people have you actually spoken to in the last year? And when they say like, I don't have anybody, I don't have a network. My first question usually is, well, have all your LinkedIn connections, even if you only have 200, how many of them have you spoken to in the last year, start there, and all of this, these, these features and new things, which again, all good stuff, but it typically just distracts us from what is the core thing. And that's just talking to people and I feel like that's where most people, when they actually do it, get most of their traction. So the best practice than a mistake, but that's me,

Annette (00:49:36):

No, I think the mistakes that a lot of people make is they kind of, set the profile and forget it. Even if they have a professionally written and they, they may have a really strong profile, but they, they don't do anything on LinkedIn. They're not really active on LinkedIn.               ,

Lisa (00:49:56):

They subscribe to the field of dreams, mentality, like build it and they will come. It's like, no, you/ve got to work it. You/ve got to work it.

Annette (00:50:04):

Yeah. I see that. And one of the things I think is something I've recently learned from other people to look at LinkedIn as, yeah, it's a big database, but it's also kind of like a big water cooler where you can talk to people. I have actually met people myself and I don't know why jobseekers can certainly do this also is you follow people you're that you're interested in. You'd like to get in touch with you, comment on some of their posts. And that way, when you go to connect with them you have a little something going there. It's not, some sort of a cold introduction. And, if you, if you do reach out to connect with them, you can message them and engage with them, you can say, Oh, I read your posts. I love blah, blah, blah. Or I've been following you. And I really find this or that, whatever engaging. And I'd like to connect with you rather than just sending a connection request.

Lisa (00:51:04):

Yeah. But I think, I think also, like not everyone is going to everyone on LinkedIn, isn't working it. Right. I mean, cause they're working right. A lot of times they're working. And so we're doing it,   it's business. I mean it's fun, right? Like we make it fun. But it's also like marketing from an entrepreneurial standpoint. But I think a lot of times if people are, I mean, unless they're in the business of marketing or they're in a marketing position, CFOs aren't necessarily, financial controllers aren't necessarily putting it all out there. So it depends, it comes down to what's the strategy? Like what are you, who are you trying to reach? Where are you going to find them? And of course, if this venue is how you're going to find who you need to find by all means, do it and do it well and learn how to do it.

Lisa (00:51:56):

If you don't know how to do it. But I mean, if you are, looking for, a financial leadership role, or if you're looking for retail position, middle level management, like it's not necessarily going to be in some of these social online venues it maybe you use the information you find online and then try to reach out to somebody directly, in various different ways. But it's just, I think sometimes we can, the mistake is that we can get caught up in all the bells and whistles that these features and different platforms have, but we have to look at why are we doing it? Are we doing it just for the activity? I mean, if we're doing it, cause we're fun and need socialization, that's sometimes all we need. And that is a legitimate thing, especially nowadays, right. But if we're mistaking the busy-ness for results and then we don't get the results, that's when we start to get frustrated because then you're like, I'm doing all this work, but it's not resulting into an interview. It's like, well, are you in the right place doing, are you doing the right things to get?

Annette (00:53:02):

Yeah, no, no, I hear you. And yes, I certainly, we certainly approach it differently than, a job seeker. Right. But I think there is some value in looking at your connections and your second degree connections and seeing where people work, if they are working at your target companies to, to, to use it, in that way. And then maybe be strategic about reaching out to people to hopefully connect you with someone. And then as soon as you're connected, not say, Oh, can you please help me find a job? Have a little something there. But just because I was actually I had a clubhouse early today and people were talking about, those isms and people don't want to put a photo up because of age discrimination or some kind of discrimination.

Annette (00:53:58):

And, while, it's all illegal, but it's still out there. And it's difficult to prove, but I know that I've spoken to people who are leery to put, a photo on LinkedIn because, people will think I'm old or young or, whatever. But, but that's such a problem, if they don't if they don't put up a photo or, and put up a photo that actually looks like you not, from 20 years ago, so somebody meets you, they don't recognize you. So what other things can people, that people don't do that they should be doing, on LinkedIn,

Lisa (00:54:42):

It's always hard, right. It's hard, I mean to, to put yourself in other people's shoes or your PA, or even pretend, right. I only have the perspective of, a white woman. So yeah. I respect all of those positions. I, I try to show people the statistics, right. The statistics show that profiles are more viewed when there's a photo, it's information and somebody can make their decision. I was in the restaurant business before I got into recruiting. And when I started recruiting, it was in a wall street office. And there were a few women and majority of men and, all the, wall street, New York East stuff. And, and while, there was, that's the, that's the experience I have of knowing, like you have to work twice as hard to get half the amount of respect, right. And that's, this is the only place I can pull it from. And the, the advice that I can give is I always felt, when I showed up, they were going to figure out I was a woman anyway.

Lisa (00:56:07):

And I don't mean that in any negative, diminishing light. And so, people have to do what they have to do to protect their hearts and their souls. And, with that being said, if they feel protected, then these are the stats for you to advance your search. And like you said, it's illegal. It's not right, frankly, if a place is going to have a hard time with me being a competent woman, I really don't want to be there in all honesty. Now, sometimes people don't have that luxury of making that choice. But I think not putting a picture isn't going to, they're going to, if they're discriminating, they're going to do it anyway. And that's a whole other discussion that I'm not completely qualified to handle in terms of bad.

Lisa (00:56:57):

Right. I figure be your best self and attract the people who want you exactly. As you are, instead of hiding to avoid the people who probably won't want to hire you anyway. So, I view it like marketing for business, right? It's like market the people who market to the people who will say yes to you, don't market to avoid the people who say no to you. And I think if a job search can be done in that way, you want to attract who is going to appreciate you for exactly who you are. So do that amplified, and do that extremely well. And with your heart being protected first and foremost, I don’t say that cavalierly when there's been a lot of emotional, trauma over, centuries. So I don't say that in any cavalier way, but that's what I try to advise if somebody is in the right place to receive it.

Annette (00:58:03):

Yeah. No, I, I agree with you, you still have to be you. And I I think it's just a matter of what you said, to be your best self, to put your best self out there. And, and then go with that because I agree with you, if a business is going to not want you, because you're, a woman or you're too young, or they think you're too old, or anything like that, they're, they're going to meet you anyway. And it's not like you can really hide if you're, if you're going to be having an interview. 

Lisa (00:58:37):

The other thing too, is I just, I try to the best of my ability to convey, an absence of information, try not to fill in the blanks, and definitely try not to fill in the blanks with negative information that you do not have proof exists yet. Even if you're normally used to a pattern, right? If in this situation, you don't know if that's exactly happening, don't fill in the blanks because, and again, I don't mean this in any insensitive way. It's like people will, we're going to think it's racism. People were experiencing sexism, things that second sexism, older people think it's, age-ism younger people think they're not getting a shot because they're too young. and the many other minority categories think they're getting . . .for religious reasons, other racial categories, they think they're not getting considered because of who they are.

Lisa (00:59:35):

And then the 35 year old white male thinks they're getting screwed over because of diversity. Right? So like everybody has their weight, we're not going to have contest of, who's got the biggest weight, but everybody in their mind has their thing that they have no control over that is weighing them down. Yeah. And in many cases, it is real, but sometimes people perceive it to be there and the evidence isn't totally there yet. And all you're doing is hurting yourself. Now that isn't a hard thing to balance. Right. especially since some of that projection comes from trauma, but, don't assume it's there until you see it . . . because again, it comes back to being your best self. So you can attract who wants you, which in many cases, it's many,

Annette (01:00:32):

I agree with you 100%. And you, you can't think that whatever, that's the reason that's always the reason. And before I ask you to give your last piece of whatever you'd like to say, I love to tell the story of a woman I worked with when I was a recruiter. And she was a woman in her sixties. I didn't ask her. She just told me that she was. And I was recruiting at that time in the digital marketing space, which is a young industry. It's a young industry. But her, her photo was vibrant on LinkedIn. Her personality was engaging and although I didn't place her she was one of the top candidates that I submitted. She was one of the top candidates for that job. And she got hired, quickly afterwards. And it was, her attitude. Her attitude in was not, well, they're probably going to discriminate against me. And the attitude makes, I think a big, a big difference. You mentioned something earlier about being negative and, and things like that while you’re job searching and, the attitude , , ,

Lisa (01:01:46):

It comes, it comes back to, controlling what you can control. And if there's things about your pres about your skillset that you're presenting that are dated, and you're not getting hired, that's not, age-ism right. That's a skillset that's not updated, so a lot of times what gets labeled, and this isn't the case for other isms, but at least with ageism, a lot of times what gets labeled as ageism, it’s thankfully stuff that people can fix. It’s updating a skill set. It's having a presentation, a resume that isn't from seven years ago where it's just tasks,  or saying, let me fax your resume in, right. Like, I mean, in theory, it's fixable, these are fixable things, right. It's, it's saying, it's not saying, I don't know how to use zoom.

Lisa (01:02:38):

Right. Like things like that. So that's a skillset. And if you focus on what you can control, at least, I think combined with a collaborative solutions minded type of attitude, you're going to get past a lot of what gets labeled as an age-ism point, because it's really about being not outdated. Right. It's about being current. It's about being young. And so thankfully we can fix that. Right. I can't fix the old I am, but I can at least try to come across, I'm relevant and my skillset is, is going on today. 

Annette (01:03:17):

Oh, I, I think that relevant, relevant, and sort of savvy to what's going on and, and using tools. I think you’re; I agree with you that a lot of times it's just I think that can,

Lisa (01:03:33):

Well, I . . . to learn, right. I mean, it's a willingness to learn, like, the two of us had no idea how to use this thing today, right?

Speaker 4 (01:03:45):

Yeah.

Lisa (01:03:47):

And it's a willingness to learn. It's a humility to make mistakes and you just keep moving forward. And I think that is at any age. Cause I see even, young adults coming out of college and they're petrified to make them stay because they don't want somebody to think they don't know what they're doing. And they also are then sometimes labeled unwilling to learn. Not because they don't want to learn it's because like every other age category, they don't want to be viewed as being unconfident, And so it's a willingness to just grow. I have no idea what I'm doing with this. Let's figure it out. And I think that can make someone come across ageless when they do that. Cause that is a common fear amongst every generation, but when we make that mistake of not being willing to learn, then we go, Oh, they're too young, they're too old or too fixed in their ways. Or they're too stubborn. It's like, no, we're just all scared to death and we just want to get along.

Annette (01:04:41):

Yup. That sure is true. Well, I think that we've just gone a little bit over our time together. I'm so glad that we created, this flew by. It was so much fun. Is there anything else that you'd like to add before we just say goodbye?

Lisa (01:05:00):

Everybody’s just got to keep focusing on the good news, just keep growing until you get the yes don't focus on the, no.

Annette (01:05:10):

It only takes, it only takes one right job. Right? All of the placements out there. All right. Well thank so much Lisa, but a treat for me, so. Okay. Well, thank you very much, everyone who's watching. And will be watching on replay. It was our pleasure to sit here and chat and have a good time today. So thank you. Have a great weekend.

Speaker 1 (01:05:41):

Thanks again for joining us for this episode of the Smarter Career Moves podcast. If you enjoyed it, please subscribe. And also if you're on clubhouse, follow the Smarter Career Moves club. Thank you.